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The Moment the ‘KPop Demon Hunters’ Crew Knew They Had a Hit in ‘Golden’

The Moment the ‘KPop Demon Hunters’ Crew Knew They Had a Hit in ‘Golden’

As KPop Demon Hunters continues to take over the world, dominating the movie and music charts with its infectious songs and badass heroines, it’s no surprise that two empowering women behind the scenes played a major role in bringing it all to life. Director Maggie Kang and songwriter (as well as the singing voice of main character Rumi) EJAE recently sat down with the press to talk about their collaboration in creating the film’s iconic pop idols and their music catalog.

And yes, “Golden” did start off on a trip to the dentist.

EJAE clarified the lore behind the hit song while speaking to io9 and other outlets at a press conference for KPop Demon Hunters today. “It was on the way to the dentist—and guess what I got in the dentist? Gold fillings. Isn’t that insane?” EJAE recalled of the experience, which seemed like one with a huge payoff, as visits to the dentist typically involve a painful cost. This one, at least, would prove worth it. “It was in the car. I got the track [idea],” she continued.

EJAE added that she didn’t know at the time of writing the songs for the film’s soundtrack that “Golden,” among other hits, would go viral after KPop Demon Hunters‘ launch, let alone become one of the songs of the summer. But she did think that golden dentist visit felt like a special moment when she cracked the song’s melody on the drive home.

“I was so excited to get my gold filling done and go home and put it down. [I] had my co-writer [Mark Sonnenblick] come on Zoom, and that’s how we would write. And I was like, ‘Oh my God, Mark, I have this melody. I think it’s pretty epic,” she continued, motioning towards Kang, who also played a pivotal part in the brainstorming of the title track. “It was all meant to be, and then the melody idea came out really fast. But obviously there was fine-tuning that was back and forth. But the main hook idea we got, and we’re like, ‘we’re done with that.’ And we’re like, ‘Wait.’ Literally Mark and I and Zoom were like, ‘Did we just write a hit?’ Like, it sounded so good.”

Kang shared that soon after that, she got to hear the rough early version of “Golden.” “I think it was in Vancouver. I know exactly where I was. I was going to the airport,” Kang recalled, saying that the film’s executive music producer, Ian Eisendrath, had urged her to get on a phone call with him.

“We were on a phone call and he’s like, ‘Maggie, I just want you to, I just need you to listen to it right now,’” Kang continued. “I was like, ‘Okay,’ so I just take my AirPods out, and I’m listening to it. And I’m just like… I heard the few notes in the beginning and then I just had tears. I knew it was it. I was like, ‘this is it.’ It’s so magical; like right from the beginning, I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, we finally got it.’ Then I started crying, and then I cried more because it’s getting better and better.”

The process to land on the song as we know it came down to the perfect balance of K-Pop and movie musical magic. “It’s definitely a different approach because you have to follow the story a lot, and you have to understand the characters and what they’re going through [in] each scene,” EJAE said of striking the balance between making a good pop song and a good song for a musical. Kang wanted the trio of Huntr/x—Rumi, Mira, and Zoey—to feel like a fully fleshed-out band, to the point where the co-director requested that EJAE stay on as the singing voice for Rumi.

Kang also closely guided EJAE and Sonnenblick on how to use the music they were creating to propel KPop Demon Hunters‘ story. “I come from a K-pop world, so I’m all about: ‘What’s a great melody? What’s a catchy hook? What’s a good concept?’ That’s always what I’m thinking about,” EJAE explained. “Even with ‘Golden’, I needed a title that just sticks—’Golden’ sticks, you know? That’s what I’m focusing on, and Mark is focusing on the storyline, so it was a lot of us going back and forth, policing each other.”

“I love musicals, by the way, but in pop form, it can get a little different,” she continued. “Sometimes musicals, you could, because you’re saying a lot of things, it could get wordy sometimes. As a pop writer, we try to avoid that.”

Ultimately, EJAE and Sonneblick leaned on each other to remind themselves of balancing the fine line in making the film’s songs. “[I’d] say, ‘oh, that sounds weird’, and then Mark would tell me, ‘Hmm, that’s off the storyline. I know that’s a really cool line, EJAE, but let’s get back to the story,’” EJAE concluded.

“So that was a lot of back and forth; it was really, really challenging, and I remember Mark and I were like, ‘This is so hard, but if we pull this off, we’re freaking geniuses.’ And we pulled it off.”

KPop Demon Hunters is now streaming on Netflix.

Want more io9 news? Check out when to expect the latest Marvel, Star Wars, and Star Trek releases, what’s next for the DC Universe on film and TV, and everything you need to know about the future of Doctor Who.

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#Moment #KPop #Demon #Hunters #Crew #Knew #Hit #Golden

For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.

Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.

The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 

Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.

Meta launches Seller, a standalone app for Facebook Marketplace sellers
                                                            For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 
Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.
        
            Mashable Light Speed
        
        
    

    
                    


            
            
            
            Credit: Facebook
        
    
Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.
As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

                    
                                            
                            
                        
                                    #Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers

Credit: Facebook

Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. 

Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.

In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.

As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.

Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

#Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers">Meta launches Seller, a standalone app for Facebook Marketplace sellers
                                                            For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 
Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.
        
            Mashable Light Speed
        
        
    

    
                    


            
            
            
            Credit: Facebook
        
    
Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.
As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

                    
                                            
                            
                        
                                    #Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers

releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.

The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 

Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.

Meta launches Seller, a standalone app for Facebook Marketplace sellers
                                                            For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 
Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.
        
            Mashable Light Speed
        
        
    

    
                    


            
            
            
            Credit: Facebook
        
    
Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.
As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

                    
                                            
                            
                        
                                    #Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers

Credit: Facebook

Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. 

Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.

In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.

As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.

Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

#Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers">Meta launches Seller, a standalone app for Facebook Marketplace sellers

For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.

Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.

The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 

Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.

Meta launches Seller, a standalone app for Facebook Marketplace sellers
                                                            For some social media users, Facebook may feel like an app left behind in an online era of the past. However, for others, Facebook has reinvented itself as the modern-day Craigslist with Facebook Marketplace.Meta seems to have taken notice and is now releasing a standalone app for the Facebook Marketplace power users who keep the platform going: It’s sellers.The new app, aptly named Seller, launched on Friday and provides Facebook Marketplace sellers with tools to list their wares and manage their current listings. 
Like Facebook Marketplace itself, the Seller app is free for users. Meta monetizes Facebook Marketplace with ads and does not take any percentage of its users’ sales. Users will be able to download the app and login with their Facebook account starting today.
        
            Mashable Light Speed
        
        
    

    
                    


            
            
            
            Credit: Facebook
        
    
Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.
As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

                    
                                            
                            
                        
                                    #Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers

Credit: Facebook

Seller provides a tool to post new listings, a dashboard to manage their existing ones, an in-app inbox to reply to prospective buyers, and analytics for all of their old listings. 

Seller also introduces a few new tools for sellers as well. According to Facebook, Seller users will be able to scan their products with their smartphone, and AI will fill-out the listing details automatically.

In an interview with the New York Times, Facebook head Tom Allison said that the app would be the Marketplace seller equivalent of a video editing tool for content creators. Allison also explained how Meta is experimenting with more standalone products for Facebook’s power users, which include Marketplace Sellers and Facebook Groups administrators.

As social media users move to competing platforms like TikTok and Meta’s own Instagram, Facebook has found new life within specific, once-niche features on the platform. In May, Facebook launched a standalone app called Forum for its Facebook Groups power users. Now, the company is doing the same for Facebook Marketplace sellers.

Meta says that one-third of young adults who use Facebook also use Marketplace. And, every month, more than 420 million items are listed on the Marketplace platform. 

#Meta #launches #Seller #standalone #app #Facebook #Marketplace #sellers
For months, AI giants have devised special vetted programs and strict guardrails to limit the use of their models by malicious hackers. But these limits are now hindering the work of legitimate network defenders, as well as that of offensive cybersecurity researchers. 

In June, the U.S. government slapped export control restrictions on Anthropic’s much-hyped AI models Mythos and Fable. The move was prompted at least in part by a report that claimed it was possible to bypass the models’ guardrails designed to prevent users from using them to build and execute malicious cyberattacks.

Regardless of whether the incident was really motivated by fears of a jailbreak, the fact is that Anthropic has repeatedly marketed Mythos as some kind of doomsday cybermachine that can only be given to carefully vetted users, and even then with strict guardrails in place. (The export controls on Fable 5 and Mythos 5 have since been lifted. Fable 5 returned to general access on July 1; Mythos 5 has been reintroduced only to vetted U.S. organizations as part of the government’s review process.)

That kind of gatekeeping isn’t unique to Mythos. Both Anthropic, with its other models, and OpenAI offer cybersecurity researchers programs they can apply to get vetted and — if approved — access models with fewer cybersecurity restrictions: OpenAI’s Trusted Access for Cyber program and Anthropic’s Cyber Verification Program

These guardrails have been widely criticized, particularly by researchers whose job is to find unknown vulnerabilities in systems and devise ways to exploit them before criminals do.

During a recent appearance on a cybersecurity podcast, Mark Dowd, a well-known security researcher, said that, “it’s not really comfortable to me that these random large companies are making arbitrary decisions about what is safe in security and what’s not.”

Dowd has spent decades finding and selling “zero-days” — previously unknown software flaws and the exploits that take advantage of them — to Western governments, rather than reporting them to the software makers so they get patched. Governments pay a premium for vulnerabilities precisely because they stay open, which is useful for intelligence operations.

Dowd admitted his work may make him biased, but he isn’t alone. Several people who work in offensive cybersecurity — they proactively probe systems for weaknesses — described to TechCrunch how they use AI tools and deal with their guardrails. 

Chris Anley, the chief scientist at security consulting giant NCC Group, said that asking an AI model to try to exploit a bug is a key step in confirming it’s a real vulnerability worth fixing. But if a guardrail prompts the model to refuse to answer the question outright, the guardrail hurts defenders, he said.

“This is where the whole offensive versus defensive and guardrails part comes in, because ‘fix this code’ as a prompt is both an essential mechanism for defense but also a roadmap for finding critical vulnerabilities in the code base,” said Anley. “So at the same time, the same tool is both an offensive tool and a defensive tool, and the two can’t really be unpicked.”

It’s “like a hammer,” he continued. “You can’t build a house without a hammer. It’s definitely a tool but it’s also irreducibly a weapon as well.”

When he and his colleagues run into such a roadblock, they sometimes fall back on open source AI models that come with no guardrails at all.

Paolo Stagno, the chief technology officer at Crowdfense, a well-known company that develops, acquires, and sells unknown vulnerabilities to government agencies, agreed with Dowd, saying AI companies “essentially treat customers like children who need babysitting” with their vetted programs and guardrails. 

Stagno said he and his colleagues do use frontier models — but only for reverse engineering. They avoid using AI to help find vulnerabilities or build exploits, he said, because feeding that work into a cloud-based model risks leaking sensitive vulnerability data or having it absorbed into future training runs. For that step, he said, they use open source models run locally, as they do not rely on sharing data outside of the model. 

Giuseppe Cali, a security researcher who finds zero-days and develops exploits, said guardrails are not impeding his work. That’s because he doesn’t use AI for offensive work; instead, he uses it for initial reverse engineering, to understand the code he’s analyzing, and to build supporting tools. For that, he said, AI tools can speed up the process and allow him to focus on discovering vulnerabilities. 

“I still want to own the actual bug discovery and weaponization myself and that wouldn’t change if all guardrails were lifted tomorrow,” said Cali. “I am jealous of my bugs, and I like this game too much to let models play it for me.”

One researcher at a smartphone-component manufacturer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn’t authorized to talk to the press, said his employer isn’t part of Anthropic’s CVP program and as a result, its tools are barely useful for finding vulnerabilities because the guardrails are too strict.

“If it catches wind we’re doing anything security related, it just stops and isn’t usable,” the person said. 

Chris Thompson — chief executive of cybersecurity firm RemoteThreat and founder of Offensive AI Con, an offensive security and AI-focused event — said that in his experience using the frontier AI models, the guardrails can be inconsistent and work differently every day. That’s true even inside the looser boundaries of Anthropic’s and OpenAI’s vetted programs. 

“I think the practical impact is you spend a lot of time negotiating with the model instead of working on the core security program,” said Thompson. “Instead of analyzing a vulnerability and reasoning through the exploitability, you’re trying to find why you’re getting inconsistent results or why are models over-sanitizing the output.” 

Consequently, researchers rely on or get pushed toward Chinese open source models like GLM — freely downloadable models that can be run locally with no vetting or usage restrictions — said Thompson.

“You have these responsible researchers that are being pushed away from U.S.-governed systems to foreign-owned systems,” he said. “I think it’s more harmful than good to have these guardrails in place.”

Rather than tightening restrictions further, Thompson called for the AI frontier labs to open up their programs, provide responsible access, and hold those who abuse their tools accountable. Otherwise, he argued, defenders will lose the AI race.

“There’s this big storm coming. There’s this big wave of attacks that are going to happen at speed and scale like never before,” said Thompson. “But the same security consulting firms and legit researchers that are trying to make a difference are being stifled right now.”

When you purchase through links in our articles, we may earn a small commission. This doesn’t affect our editorial independence.

#guardrails #impeding #work #offensive #cybersecurity #researchers #TechCrunchcybersecurity,Zero-days">How AI guardrails are impeding the work of offensive cybersecurity researchers | TechCrunch
For months, AI giants have devised special vetted programs and strict guardrails to limit the use of their models by malicious hackers. But these limits are now hindering the work of legitimate network defenders, as well as that of offensive cybersecurity researchers. 

In June, the U.S. government slapped export control restrictions on Anthropic’s much-hyped AI models Mythos and Fable. The move was prompted at least in part by a report that claimed it was possible to bypass the models’ guardrails designed to prevent users from using them to build and execute malicious cyberattacks.







Regardless of whether the incident was really motivated by fears of a jailbreak, the fact is that Anthropic has repeatedly marketed Mythos as some kind of doomsday cybermachine that can only be given to carefully vetted users, and even then with strict guardrails in place. (The export controls on Fable 5 and Mythos 5 have since been lifted. Fable 5 returned to general access on July 1; Mythos 5 has been reintroduced only to vetted U.S. organizations as part of the government’s review process.)

That kind of gatekeeping isn’t unique to Mythos. Both Anthropic, with its other models, and OpenAI offer cybersecurity researchers programs they can apply to get vetted and — if approved — access models with fewer cybersecurity restrictions: OpenAI’s Trusted Access for Cyber program and Anthropic’s Cyber Verification Program. 

These guardrails have been widely criticized, particularly by researchers whose job is to find unknown vulnerabilities in systems and devise ways to exploit them before criminals do.

During a recent appearance on a cybersecurity podcast, Mark Dowd, a well-known security researcher, said that, “it’s not really comfortable to me that these random large companies are making arbitrary decisions about what is safe in security and what’s not.”

Dowd has spent decades finding and selling “zero-days” — previously unknown software flaws and the exploits that take advantage of them — to Western governments, rather than reporting them to the software makers so they get patched. Governments pay a premium for vulnerabilities precisely because they stay open, which is useful for intelligence operations.


Dowd admitted his work may make him biased, but he isn’t alone. Several people who work in offensive cybersecurity — they proactively probe systems for weaknesses  — described to TechCrunch how they use AI tools and deal with their guardrails. 

Chris Anley, the chief scientist at security consulting giant NCC Group, said that asking an AI model to try to exploit a bug is a key step in confirming it’s a real vulnerability worth fixing. But if a guardrail prompts the model to refuse to answer the question outright, the guardrail hurts defenders, he said. 

“This is where the whole offensive versus defensive and guardrails part comes in, because ‘fix this code’ as a prompt is both an essential mechanism for defense but also a roadmap for finding critical vulnerabilities in the code base,” said Anley. “So at the same time, the same tool is both an offensive tool and a defensive tool, and the two can’t really be unpicked.” 







It’s “like a hammer,” he continued. “You can’t build a house without a hammer. It’s definitely a tool but it’s also irreducibly a weapon as well.”

When he and his colleagues run into such a roadblock, they sometimes fall back on open source AI models that come with no guardrails at all.

Paolo Stagno, the chief technology officer at Crowdfense, a well-known company that develops, acquires, and sells unknown vulnerabilities to government agencies, agreed with Dowd, saying AI companies “essentially treat customers like children who need babysitting” with their vetted programs and guardrails. 

Stagno said he and his colleagues do use frontier models — but only for reverse engineering. They avoid using AI to help find vulnerabilities or build exploits, he said, because feeding that work into a cloud-based model risks leaking sensitive vulnerability data or having it absorbed into future training runs. For that step, he said, they use open source models run locally, as they do not rely on sharing data outside of the model. 

Giuseppe Cali, a security researcher who finds zero-days and develops exploits, said guardrails are not impeding his work. That’s because he doesn’t use AI for offensive work; instead, he uses it for initial reverse engineering, to understand the code he’s analyzing, and to build supporting tools. For that, he said, AI tools can speed up the process and allow him to focus on discovering vulnerabilities. 

“I still want to own the actual bug discovery and weaponization myself and that wouldn’t change if all guardrails were lifted tomorrow,” said Cali. “I am jealous of my bugs, and I like this game too much to let models play it for me.”

One researcher at a smartphone-component manufacturer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn’t authorized to talk to the press, said his employer isn’t part of Anthropic’s CVP program and as a result, its tools are barely useful for finding vulnerabilities because the guardrails are too strict.

“If it catches wind we’re doing anything security related, it just stops and isn’t usable,” the person said. 







Chris Thompson — chief executive of cybersecurity firm RemoteThreat and founder of Offensive AI Con, an offensive security and AI-focused event — said that in his experience using the frontier AI models, the guardrails can be inconsistent and work differently every day. That’s true even inside the looser boundaries of Anthropic’s and OpenAI’s vetted programs. 

“I think the practical impact is you spend a lot of time negotiating with the model instead of working on the core security program,” said Thompson. “Instead of analyzing a vulnerability and reasoning through the exploitability, you’re trying to find why you’re getting inconsistent results or why are models over-sanitizing the output.” 

Consequently, researchers rely on or get pushed toward Chinese open source models like GLM — freely downloadable models that can be run locally with no vetting or usage restrictions — said Thompson.

“You have these responsible researchers that are being pushed away from U.S.-governed systems to foreign-owned systems,” he said. “I think it’s more harmful than good to have these guardrails in place.”

Rather than tightening restrictions further, Thompson called for the AI frontier labs to open up their programs, provide responsible access, and hold those who abuse their tools accountable. Otherwise, he argued, defenders will lose the AI race.

“There’s this big storm coming. There’s this big wave of attacks that are going to happen at speed and scale like never before,” said Thompson. “But the same security consulting firms and legit researchers that are trying to make a difference are being stifled right now.”


When you purchase through links in our articles, we may earn a small commission. This doesn’t affect our editorial independence.#guardrails #impeding #work #offensive #cybersecurity #researchers #TechCrunchcybersecurity,Zero-days

slapped export control restrictions on Anthropic’s much-hyped AI models Mythos and Fable. The move was prompted at least in part by a report that claimed it was possible to bypass the models’ guardrails designed to prevent users from using them to build and execute malicious cyberattacks.

Regardless of whether the incident was really motivated by fears of a jailbreak, the fact is that Anthropic has repeatedly marketed Mythos as some kind of doomsday cybermachine that can only be given to carefully vetted users, and even then with strict guardrails in place. (The export controls on Fable 5 and Mythos 5 have since been lifted. Fable 5 returned to general access on July 1; Mythos 5 has been reintroduced only to vetted U.S. organizations as part of the government’s review process.)

That kind of gatekeeping isn’t unique to Mythos. Both Anthropic, with its other models, and OpenAI offer cybersecurity researchers programs they can apply to get vetted and — if approved — access models with fewer cybersecurity restrictions: OpenAI’s Trusted Access for Cyber program and Anthropic’s Cyber Verification Program

These guardrails have been widely criticized, particularly by researchers whose job is to find unknown vulnerabilities in systems and devise ways to exploit them before criminals do.

During a recent appearance on a cybersecurity podcast, Mark Dowd, a well-known security researcher, said that, “it’s not really comfortable to me that these random large companies are making arbitrary decisions about what is safe in security and what’s not.”

Dowd has spent decades finding and selling “zero-days” — previously unknown software flaws and the exploits that take advantage of them — to Western governments, rather than reporting them to the software makers so they get patched. Governments pay a premium for vulnerabilities precisely because they stay open, which is useful for intelligence operations.

Dowd admitted his work may make him biased, but he isn’t alone. Several people who work in offensive cybersecurity — they proactively probe systems for weaknesses — described to TechCrunch how they use AI tools and deal with their guardrails. 

Chris Anley, the chief scientist at security consulting giant NCC Group, said that asking an AI model to try to exploit a bug is a key step in confirming it’s a real vulnerability worth fixing. But if a guardrail prompts the model to refuse to answer the question outright, the guardrail hurts defenders, he said.

“This is where the whole offensive versus defensive and guardrails part comes in, because ‘fix this code’ as a prompt is both an essential mechanism for defense but also a roadmap for finding critical vulnerabilities in the code base,” said Anley. “So at the same time, the same tool is both an offensive tool and a defensive tool, and the two can’t really be unpicked.”

It’s “like a hammer,” he continued. “You can’t build a house without a hammer. It’s definitely a tool but it’s also irreducibly a weapon as well.”

When he and his colleagues run into such a roadblock, they sometimes fall back on open source AI models that come with no guardrails at all.

Paolo Stagno, the chief technology officer at Crowdfense, a well-known company that develops, acquires, and sells unknown vulnerabilities to government agencies, agreed with Dowd, saying AI companies “essentially treat customers like children who need babysitting” with their vetted programs and guardrails. 

Stagno said he and his colleagues do use frontier models — but only for reverse engineering. They avoid using AI to help find vulnerabilities or build exploits, he said, because feeding that work into a cloud-based model risks leaking sensitive vulnerability data or having it absorbed into future training runs. For that step, he said, they use open source models run locally, as they do not rely on sharing data outside of the model. 

Giuseppe Cali, a security researcher who finds zero-days and develops exploits, said guardrails are not impeding his work. That’s because he doesn’t use AI for offensive work; instead, he uses it for initial reverse engineering, to understand the code he’s analyzing, and to build supporting tools. For that, he said, AI tools can speed up the process and allow him to focus on discovering vulnerabilities. 

“I still want to own the actual bug discovery and weaponization myself and that wouldn’t change if all guardrails were lifted tomorrow,” said Cali. “I am jealous of my bugs, and I like this game too much to let models play it for me.”

One researcher at a smartphone-component manufacturer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn’t authorized to talk to the press, said his employer isn’t part of Anthropic’s CVP program and as a result, its tools are barely useful for finding vulnerabilities because the guardrails are too strict.

“If it catches wind we’re doing anything security related, it just stops and isn’t usable,” the person said. 

Chris Thompson — chief executive of cybersecurity firm RemoteThreat and founder of Offensive AI Con, an offensive security and AI-focused event — said that in his experience using the frontier AI models, the guardrails can be inconsistent and work differently every day. That’s true even inside the looser boundaries of Anthropic’s and OpenAI’s vetted programs. 

“I think the practical impact is you spend a lot of time negotiating with the model instead of working on the core security program,” said Thompson. “Instead of analyzing a vulnerability and reasoning through the exploitability, you’re trying to find why you’re getting inconsistent results or why are models over-sanitizing the output.” 

Consequently, researchers rely on or get pushed toward Chinese open source models like GLM — freely downloadable models that can be run locally with no vetting or usage restrictions — said Thompson.

“You have these responsible researchers that are being pushed away from U.S.-governed systems to foreign-owned systems,” he said. “I think it’s more harmful than good to have these guardrails in place.”

Rather than tightening restrictions further, Thompson called for the AI frontier labs to open up their programs, provide responsible access, and hold those who abuse their tools accountable. Otherwise, he argued, defenders will lose the AI race.

“There’s this big storm coming. There’s this big wave of attacks that are going to happen at speed and scale like never before,” said Thompson. “But the same security consulting firms and legit researchers that are trying to make a difference are being stifled right now.”

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#guardrails #impeding #work #offensive #cybersecurity #researchers #TechCrunchcybersecurity,Zero-days">How AI guardrails are impeding the work of offensive cybersecurity researchers | TechCrunch

For months, AI giants have devised special vetted programs and strict guardrails to limit the use of their models by malicious hackers. But these limits are now hindering the work of legitimate network defenders, as well as that of offensive cybersecurity researchers. 

In June, the U.S. government slapped export control restrictions on Anthropic’s much-hyped AI models Mythos and Fable. The move was prompted at least in part by a report that claimed it was possible to bypass the models’ guardrails designed to prevent users from using them to build and execute malicious cyberattacks.

Regardless of whether the incident was really motivated by fears of a jailbreak, the fact is that Anthropic has repeatedly marketed Mythos as some kind of doomsday cybermachine that can only be given to carefully vetted users, and even then with strict guardrails in place. (The export controls on Fable 5 and Mythos 5 have since been lifted. Fable 5 returned to general access on July 1; Mythos 5 has been reintroduced only to vetted U.S. organizations as part of the government’s review process.)

That kind of gatekeeping isn’t unique to Mythos. Both Anthropic, with its other models, and OpenAI offer cybersecurity researchers programs they can apply to get vetted and — if approved — access models with fewer cybersecurity restrictions: OpenAI’s Trusted Access for Cyber program and Anthropic’s Cyber Verification Program

These guardrails have been widely criticized, particularly by researchers whose job is to find unknown vulnerabilities in systems and devise ways to exploit them before criminals do.

During a recent appearance on a cybersecurity podcast, Mark Dowd, a well-known security researcher, said that, “it’s not really comfortable to me that these random large companies are making arbitrary decisions about what is safe in security and what’s not.”

Dowd has spent decades finding and selling “zero-days” — previously unknown software flaws and the exploits that take advantage of them — to Western governments, rather than reporting them to the software makers so they get patched. Governments pay a premium for vulnerabilities precisely because they stay open, which is useful for intelligence operations.

Dowd admitted his work may make him biased, but he isn’t alone. Several people who work in offensive cybersecurity — they proactively probe systems for weaknesses — described to TechCrunch how they use AI tools and deal with their guardrails. 

Chris Anley, the chief scientist at security consulting giant NCC Group, said that asking an AI model to try to exploit a bug is a key step in confirming it’s a real vulnerability worth fixing. But if a guardrail prompts the model to refuse to answer the question outright, the guardrail hurts defenders, he said.

“This is where the whole offensive versus defensive and guardrails part comes in, because ‘fix this code’ as a prompt is both an essential mechanism for defense but also a roadmap for finding critical vulnerabilities in the code base,” said Anley. “So at the same time, the same tool is both an offensive tool and a defensive tool, and the two can’t really be unpicked.”

It’s “like a hammer,” he continued. “You can’t build a house without a hammer. It’s definitely a tool but it’s also irreducibly a weapon as well.”

When he and his colleagues run into such a roadblock, they sometimes fall back on open source AI models that come with no guardrails at all.

Paolo Stagno, the chief technology officer at Crowdfense, a well-known company that develops, acquires, and sells unknown vulnerabilities to government agencies, agreed with Dowd, saying AI companies “essentially treat customers like children who need babysitting” with their vetted programs and guardrails. 

Stagno said he and his colleagues do use frontier models — but only for reverse engineering. They avoid using AI to help find vulnerabilities or build exploits, he said, because feeding that work into a cloud-based model risks leaking sensitive vulnerability data or having it absorbed into future training runs. For that step, he said, they use open source models run locally, as they do not rely on sharing data outside of the model. 

Giuseppe Cali, a security researcher who finds zero-days and develops exploits, said guardrails are not impeding his work. That’s because he doesn’t use AI for offensive work; instead, he uses it for initial reverse engineering, to understand the code he’s analyzing, and to build supporting tools. For that, he said, AI tools can speed up the process and allow him to focus on discovering vulnerabilities. 

“I still want to own the actual bug discovery and weaponization myself and that wouldn’t change if all guardrails were lifted tomorrow,” said Cali. “I am jealous of my bugs, and I like this game too much to let models play it for me.”

One researcher at a smartphone-component manufacturer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn’t authorized to talk to the press, said his employer isn’t part of Anthropic’s CVP program and as a result, its tools are barely useful for finding vulnerabilities because the guardrails are too strict.

“If it catches wind we’re doing anything security related, it just stops and isn’t usable,” the person said. 

Chris Thompson — chief executive of cybersecurity firm RemoteThreat and founder of Offensive AI Con, an offensive security and AI-focused event — said that in his experience using the frontier AI models, the guardrails can be inconsistent and work differently every day. That’s true even inside the looser boundaries of Anthropic’s and OpenAI’s vetted programs. 

“I think the practical impact is you spend a lot of time negotiating with the model instead of working on the core security program,” said Thompson. “Instead of analyzing a vulnerability and reasoning through the exploitability, you’re trying to find why you’re getting inconsistent results or why are models over-sanitizing the output.” 

Consequently, researchers rely on or get pushed toward Chinese open source models like GLM — freely downloadable models that can be run locally with no vetting or usage restrictions — said Thompson.

“You have these responsible researchers that are being pushed away from U.S.-governed systems to foreign-owned systems,” he said. “I think it’s more harmful than good to have these guardrails in place.”

Rather than tightening restrictions further, Thompson called for the AI frontier labs to open up their programs, provide responsible access, and hold those who abuse their tools accountable. Otherwise, he argued, defenders will lose the AI race.

“There’s this big storm coming. There’s this big wave of attacks that are going to happen at speed and scale like never before,” said Thompson. “But the same security consulting firms and legit researchers that are trying to make a difference are being stifled right now.”

When you purchase through links in our articles, we may earn a small commission. This doesn’t affect our editorial independence.

#guardrails #impeding #work #offensive #cybersecurity #researchers #TechCrunchcybersecurity,Zero-days

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